- Paper programming magazines that came out monthly. These normally had articles that centered around a program you would type in manually from the pages of the magazine.

- In-person user group meetups. These were pretty entertaining and full of brilliant basement dwellers with entertaining and non-normal personalities.

- BBSes (social networking)

To add to this list:

- Manuals. Reading carefully through the documentation was necessary for mastery. Both hardware and software. These were often closely associated-- you couldn't always just concentrate on one and abstract away the other.

  How are you going to get your debugging help now? StackOverflow doesn't exist.

Plus, turnover was less, so you had institutional knowledge over long periods maintained by peers and clients alike.

In the mainframe environment in which I worked, we had a lot of company-specific and proprietary systems and tools that outsiders couldn't have helped with, anyway. And they beat the crap out of IBM's packages.

And no live Internet connection doesn't preclude dial-up.

And IBM tended to document the hell out of their stuff.

I learned C by reading K&R. I learned Pascal by reading an equivalent book, though I can't remember who wrote it. I learned Basic by reading the TRS-80 Basic manual. I learned 68000 assembler by reading Motorola's 68000 book. And so on.

I remember the day the hard drive on the development system died. How did we find a replacement? Yellow pages to find companies that were plausible, then calling them to find out if they had what we needed.

Everything moved slower. But the people you competed against were also moving slower...

Jensen and Wirth, Pascal User Manual and Report. Springer. Silver cover. Typeset in typewriter font. Syntax presented both in BNF and graphic 'railroad track' diagrams. Very short, even though it was two books in one: the tutorial User Manual and the reference Report. Very very clear and well-written.

The ideal in those days was one book that was complete and authoritative and also instructive - if you knew that book, you knew the language. K&R (1978) is the famous example but Jensen and Wirth preceded it (1974).

I could have written the exact same post. :)

But better.

At the other end books from the former German Democratic Republic, Softcover, thin, often already yellowing paper, shabby looking typeset. But: no frills, rarely any obivious errors, and straight to the point while cheap.

Guess which i did prefer?

edit: sample https://wiki.forth-ev.de/doku.php/projects:vack_-_programmie...

;->

I still do that, along with targeted experimenting on small bits of code I need to understand better. The skill of reading code and “running” it in the head seems forgotten now, though I think talented programmers usually get there.

Everyone copies from the best, but it seems a lot of developers just copy, paste and then let the IDE autofix any warnings. The code block becomes a magical incantation rather than a sequence of operations.

It never occurred to me that the reason I look at code differently is simply because I am from am older generation. I only started coding professionally in the 90s, but even then compiling wasn't especially fast so it was expected to review code before kicking off a build. And as a kid in the 80s I spent more time reading code in books and magazines than actually at a computer typing it in, so I had to think about and imagine what it would do.

There is definitely a lot to be said for the modern world of linters, unit tests etc running continuously - I wouldn't want to give up any of that up! But I do wonder if the developers who aren't able to explain what their code actually does are missing some fundamental skill. Clearly it doesn't matter to the customer because these developers still produce working products, but it feels to me like some level of quality has been lost.

It has been true my whole career and I can't wait for the moment when I can retire and then have the time to learn enough to feel like I know what I'm doing.

In most cases we don't need to deal with as much low-level complexity or with cumbersome tooling, but "understanding the universe" would mean understanding pretty much all the levels of abstraction we have (and we have a lot), a diverse stack of technologies with rather different paradigms, a security landscape that has become much more complex with all the code we're running in a browser, and so on.

I don't know what one is to do, but I somehow feel that "understanding the universe" is much more difficult nowadays than it perhaps was a few decades ago. There were probably fewer levels of abstraction, less diversity of technology, UIs might have been programmed in the same language as the rest of the program so there might not have been a need to juggle in a few languages at the same time, etc.

Not to mention that since it's nowadays possible to program reasonably without having all that lower-level understanding, unlike perhaps a few decades ago, lots of people do that and (immediate) productivity expectations naturally grow to match.

I feel the pain, though.

In my first "serious" programming job, I was hired to be a C programmer. But just to get C building, you also need to understand Makefiles, and to understand those you need to understand shell script. We printed stuff to console in color, so we needed to understand ANSI escape sequences. We also printed to printers, so we needed to understand HP PCL. Some of our systems needed to talk to dedicated hardware attached on the serial port, so we had to learn proprietary protocols. Newer devices were attached via TCP, so we had to learn sockets and those protocols too. We had our own home-built database, but sometimes we needed SQL. We used Informix, later Postgres. Each had a different stored procedure language and C bindings. We deployed on UNIX, so we needed to understand files and pipes and processes and semaphores. We used a modem to dial our our customer sites, so needed to know about a tool called Kermit. There were many different flavors of UNIX back then, and they all had slightly different behaviors. We had to learn all the quirks that applied to the APIs we were using.

Later on we started to build front ends in Java AWT and Python GTK, and that brought in a slew of new tech. Much of this tech was still pre-2000.

In my current job, I am mostly working in Java and Python, but now they are backend languages. The services are built using Gradle, which needs knowledge of Groovy, or setuptools which is just more Python. The packages are bundled in containers and pushed to the cloud. There is a lot of engineering that enables this stack, but the only part we need to know about is the format of a Dockerfile (so, basic shell scripting) and various YAMLs for CloudFormation and the CI/CD system. We talk to lots of other services, but we don't need to know anything about TCP or sockets, we just need to use a library to manage the HTTP connections and another library to convert the wire format to objects. We don't care about presentation logic or reporting because someone elsewhere in the stack is going to do that. We define our contracts in Protobuf, JSON or XML and move on. Some services need to keep state, and for almost all use cases the file system is sufficient - in AWS that means S3. Sometimes we send or receive messages - in AWS that means SNS/SQS. We also push metrics and logging and distributed trace context, but that's just more HTTP abstracted away into a library. We build dashboards in Grafana using OpenTSDB query language. We check our logs in Kibana using Lucene query language.

There is a lot to learn. I could spend even more time learning about Kubernetes or Kafka or Go or Redis or a hundred other components required by software outside my current domain, but none of that is necessary in my current role. Back in the day I could have spent time learning about OS/390 or Syslog or Perl or Berkeley DB too.

So, although I agree that "the universe" in general is much more complex, I haven't found that to be true about the part individual developers are expected to understand.

That's probably true. I think the person I was responding to felt like they would want to understand more than they're necessarily expected by others to, though. I kind of share that sentiment, and they also mentioned impostor syndrome, so I wanted to express my feeling that if you want to understand "the universe" (and not just what's necessary in order to fulfill the what's expected of you), that's probably more complex nowadays than it maybe was back when the field was even younger.

You have a longer perspective on that development than I do, though (I started in the early 2000's or so), so thanks for sharing.

That said, by the sounds of it you have worked with some colleagues who have been unhelpful in teaching you the rules. This might be because you are building on a poorly-architected thing that cannot easily be explained, or in a system that does not have detailed documentation. Both of those situations are solvable problems, and neither of them is an excuse for the people who do understand to gatekeep their knowledge or discourage curiosity.

OTOH I think programmers should strive not to lean on the compiler to find silly errors: so build up working memory of syntax etc. and slow down to double check the code you wrote.

But having that compilation and unit test loop - or even a repl - I could code as efficiently without it.

Then there were 3rd party books, sometimes very good ones. And magazines, some of which were very good too.

The only way I really learned was by saving my money (returning soda cans and mowing lawns) and buying MULTIPLE books on the same subject because the examples or explanations differed enough to triangulate WTF was going on.

Nibble magazine had source code in it every month for the Apple that explained how stuff worked. I once typed in 14 pages of assembly to write a space-invader's game. Most of it was bitmaps.

When I was 13 I won a scholarship to a computer camp and spent a month with experts who answered every question I had and taught me how to debug. It expanded my knowledge 1e6%.

I'm a late-70's kid. I grew up near Yale University I bought programming books from the Yale Co-op book store with allowance money.

I started with BASIC on a relative's C64, then got into 6502 assembly[1] on the school Apple computers[2], then bought a book on 286 protected mode when I got to highschool. Then I worked for a machinist who taught me C in the mid-80's.

It was really hard without a network of experts to reach out to.

I still a have the latter two books, below, with my big, goofy-kid handwriting in them:

[0] Nibble mag ... https://www.nibblemagazine.com/

[1] 6502 Software Gourmet Guide & Cookbook, Robert Findly ... https://www.amazon.com/6502-software-gourmet-guide-cookbook/...

[2] Beneath Apple DOS, by Don Worth and Pieter Lechner ... https://www.amazon.com/Beneath-Apple-DOS-Don-Worth/dp/091298...

Do you still work in the tech domain? Do you have any guidance, or words of wisdom, for people with less experience?

Just get in there and code. You'll be frustrated a lot, but it's a learning experience. Pat yourself on the back when you hit an obstacle and work through it, don't worry if you don't finish your original goal; the goal is to learn. Ask any hacker on this site and the # of projects finished vs the # of projects half-done rapidly approaches zero!

After all, to do anything useful it's often 10 times longer than doing the same thing in C, which is itself longer than doing the same thing in, say, Python.

> You are probably thinking of assembly code generated by a compiler, not by a human

An understandable response, but no as it happens I'm not.

At various times I've been an expert-level assembly language programmer and have programmed at least 20 architectures. I forget, some are quite obscure, especially non-descript Qualcomm DSPs :-) At one time I won an informal competition to make the smallest ELF executable, and I used to write games engines, back when every cycle counted, and artfully hand-tuned, clever texture mapping techniques, tuned for each generation of processor, alongside higher-level mathematical algorithms to get the best out of the low-level loops were the sort of thing needed. So I'm familiar with Michael Abrash, and "human-optimised" dense assembly.

I've written 100% assembly programs on the order of 10,000s of instructions long, which corresponds to 100s of "pages".

I wouldn't do that these days without a good reason, in fact I'm into very high level architecture and optimisation methods, and designing languages around problems, but I do know my way around an assembler when needed.

I've also reverse engineered a number of things from machine code back to C, sometimes to fix bugs in the machine code and create binary patches, sometimes to port it, and sometimes to reverse engineer how to operate a device. So I've read and analysed large amounts of assembler too, but to be fair that code does tend to be mostly compiler generated.

And the keyboards were big and loud. And there were only a few lines on the terminal screen.

And when you printed out a listing, you had to walk a few hundred meters to the data center (called "Rechenzentrum") to pick up the stack of paper at the counter.

Even today, in the age of the WWW, I still have thousands of books as PDF with a local search engine. There is still plenty of (important) information that you can't just access over the Internet.

I really miss that.

> What did you work on? The internet. We had dial-up BBSs and some pay services, mostly to distribute text files. I spent most of my time writing peer-to-peer networking, distributed file storage, and p2p content discovery. > How did you Learn?

The book that came with the compiler and/or IDE was usually excellent and all you needed. I tried reading Dr Dobbs, but that was usually closer to hardware, and way over my head. There were all these books full of prose that I didn’t care about. I just wanted code to get things done.

> How did you fix issues? Change. Compile. Error message. Repeat.

> How did you find talent? Kids that swapped floppies at school. Started with txtz, then pr0n, then warez, then c0dez.

> War stories? Lots of screwup kid stuff learned from txtz like making bombs and drugs. Password stealing worms. Eventually pioneered the click fraud worm at the beginning of the internet and that was the end of it for me.

Hardware was less reliable, occasionally coming up with the wrong results. One time the result was wrong because the printer had printed the wrong digit! I'd spent hours desk checking the code only to find the code was right. So I ran it again.

It was much more normal for managers to really not know what a computer really is. This included programming and IT managers. One very accomplished boss asked me, in a meeting, how long it took to write a program. What kind of program? I asked. Oh, a general program. That put me in a no-win situation. If I said a year, he'd pop a cork and get all red-faced. If I said two weeks, he'd hold me to it no matter what the program was supposed to do.

> I first worked on surface acoustic waves for signal processing - most computational intensive part of the business. Other teams were laying out chips with Rubylith.

> Learnt by doing, occasional mentoring from more experienced team member, reading the manual.

> A lot of issue fixing was done by poring over printouts. A lot of trial and error.

> I didn't do talent hunting in those days.

> News was in journal articles, 'trade' magazines, user groups (proceedings distributed on magnetic tapes).

We had terminals connected to our main computer, a connection to a remote university computer (slow) and networks to other sites within the business. New software would be delivered on magnetic tape, also used for backup. Some measurement data was transferred via paper tape.

Data was mostly measured, processed and printed out. Archive versions of code were stored on printout.

You had a Terminal, then maybe a workstation on your desk and lastly a PC and modem at home.. News groups and irc, ftp and muds over telnet, then eventually gopher.. If you had no academic affiliations you might use independent BBSes or communicate over an alliance of them that exchanged mail.

Many things could be downloaded eventually, but large things like compilers and OSes and their updates might come on tape..

Even once the web was running, it was not evenly distributed even in corporations and we would fax faq contents to common OS problems to workers who had large disconnected networks. These still exist for security reasons today, but those workers at least have web access when they leave their sites.

https://www.bl.uk/collection-items/letter-from-ada-lovelace-...

Software would be distributed in print magazines for you to key in, either in a language like BASIC or Turbo Pascal, or in many pages of hexadecimal numbers that represent the binary executible (sometimes with a check sum, sometimes without).

Nowadays I think a system programmer fits more into the role of prehistory programmer. You need a manual, a couple cups of coffee and that's it. StackOverflow probably doesn't have a lot of answers for system programming I assume. Plus a system programmer usually has more skills out of box.

We also had a computer not in our building where we would code programs in pencil onto cards (like multiple-choice answers) that would be taken away and run overnight. You received your syntax errors the next day so there was incentive to double-check.

That pretty much sucked so I got an Atari 8-bit computer with the Basic and Asteroids cartridges. The basic book came with simple instructions. Enough that I could write my own lunar surface generator (2D using graphic characters) and lander game.

Over the years learned from magazines like Creative Computing, Compute!, Antic, Byte, Dr Dobbs.

My big break was getting a floppy drive to save programs (before that I had to turn off the computer losing my work to play Asteroids which invariably happened regardless of how many days I spent writing the current program). I also got Galactic Chase and Macro Assembler (with Medit a full screen editor). Before that I was making strings of extended characters in Basic that contained manually translated machine instructions to execute. You allocate the string that ends in a "RTS" return from subroutine, get its address and jump-subroutine to it.

After getting bits and pieces of hardware graphics info from magazines, I got my hands on the legendary "de re Atari" which pretty much explained everything, or at least started to so you could follow up. After that my friends and I made an endless number of games. Even then I enjoyed making the game building tools (character set editors, sprite editors, level editors) more fun than playing the games.

Then I got paid to write a stock-keeping program for a stereo/jewellery store in the mall with CompuPlace where I hung out. That was CP/M running dBase II. Wrote an inventory program for CompuPlace with machine-code compressed in-memory sort with memory bank switching (so like a merge sort). Automated some record keeping for an Italian immigration assistance shop run by a priest, discovering espresso. Then I started university co-op. Wrote some mini, mainframe, Vax assembler routines, COBOL, microcode macros for terminals.

My real education didn't happen until I worked as a co-op for a communications/graphics company called Eicon Technology in Montreal. Read the K&R C book, wrote programs using MS C Compiler v3 and v4 (woohoo CodeView). I wrote an interpreter for the HP PCL language used by LaserJets to be firmware for Eicon's laser engine products.

I have a few good stories. I was working late at the office one night and the office got a call. We had phones at our desks with all the line buttons so I answered it. One of our developers in the Vancouver office doing a high profile project with IBM had just somehow lost the hard drive partition with all their latest work. There were lots of undelete tools at the time, but this was an IBM project--they were using OS/2 with HPFS formatted drives. I figured that there were identically configured hardware so I instructed the guy, over the phone, to use the copy of the DOS Norton Utility that I sent him, again over phone modem, to copy some sectors from any random computer with the same OS and hard disk size. While working late at the office, I would often read the books on our shelves, one of them happened to detail the internals of HPFS and I'd recently read it. HPFS has multiple boot sectors at the beginning of the disk, then central directory in the middle of the disk (to save on seek time), then data bands with local allocation info. I just wanted to copy the initial boot and central directory from one machine to the other. Of course all the filenames and allocation would be garbage, but it would at least know it had a filesystem and the size of it. There was some "systeminternals" tools that could be downloaded from various BBSes and one of them happened to be an HPFS directory rebuilder. I think we had to boot OS/2 off of several floppies to get to a command prompt to run that. After maybe an hour of running, the data was back. Got the news, was surprised to hear it worked as well as it did. They owed me beer and Mongolian grill when I came to visit.

As a teenager, I had about 2-3 people to talk to about computers, and no-one who could program like I could.

At 10 I got to play with a BBC micro, then at 11, I was lucky to get one of my own. Around the same time, I discovered the BBC Micro Advanced Users Manual, a book which was banned in the school computer room for unclear reasons.

It was chock full of commands for the ROM, things like how to draw, programming the sound controller, how to work with the video chip, the A/D converters, etc. Looking back that was a very good ROM and a very good book for someone like me learning.

In the back was a two page table listing the 6502 mnemonics and opcodes. But it didn't say what any of the instructions did!

It took me a while to guess what things like ADC, LDX, TXA etc. meant and it was really exciting to have the ideas fall into place, as if by magic as the guesses worked out.

The BBC was unusual in having a built-in assembler, embedded into BBC BASIC, so it was easy to try instructions.

This was awesome for learning assembly as a child, and it meant I ended up learning assembly less than a year after touching a computer for the first time.

There were absolutely no books from the local library that helped with computers. And no bookshops. It was that manual (as well as the non-advanced manual), a couple of Ladybird books about the basics of how computers work and logic gates, and... lots and lots of magazines. Computer magazines were almost everything, I had boxes of them by the end. I'm sure I learned a lot from them, especially C++, although I didn't have anything powerful enough to compile C, let alone C++. The low-level technical stuff wasn't really covered; I had to figure that out myself. But there was a lot of game listings you could type in and learn from.

(There was one book from the library about PAL colour TV that I kept taking out though, because PAL encoding is so fascinating and subtle, and it described it both mathematically and in great detail the analogue circuits that implemented it all.)

I wrote a lot of games, clever demos, and several little OSes as a teenager (for different machines). Since there was no internet (that I knew about) and I had no modem, and couldn't have afforded the phone calls if I did anyway, for the most part I'm the only person who used my work at the time, but some of the games, demos and cracks were used by others.

Much of my time was spent cracking games, and some of them had fancy copy protection schemes and strange tape modulations (we loaded things from cassette tape), so there were a lot of puzzles to solve.

I ported a few games from machine to machine, just for interest. But a couple in particular I put a lot of effort into. Starquake was a fun Spectrum game that I reimplemented on the BBC, but ultimately didn't share with anyone. Impossaball nearly earned me some cash, but it didn't work out as the company decided they were leaving the BBC market, shortly after they'd agreed to buy it from me :/

In those days, chips in computers did just what they needed to when programmed just right, and did all sorts of strange things when programmed differently. So another bit of fun, that demoscene folks will recognise, is that if you poke video chips in various "unspecified" ways or at critical times to exact clock cycle, they malfunction in interesting ways.

On the BBC that got me a high-res full-colour display which was "impossible" (therefore good for the Starquake port), smooth scrolling which was also "impossible", and mode 7 multi-colour text without gaps between letters - that's enough to do syntax highlighting which I never saw anyone do on it :-)

One of the most memorable things for me from that time, was printing out the full disassembly of Elite (Disk version) on dot matrix, and poring over it to completely understand how the game worked. I'm not sure how many pages that was, but the stack of paper was about an inch thick and filled my bedroom when unfolded. I learned a lot from that; it was a rich game, full of tricks.

It turns out I couldn't actually play the game properly until I modified it anyway, as I had a "Torch" BBC Micro, which had a different keyboard mapping than the standard BBC, so I had to modify the game before I could play it as it was meant to be played.

My "not quite BBC" machine had a 6502, Z80 and 68000 CPU attached, so in a peculiar way I got to write for all three CPUs and do some things that were, in retrospect, very unusual for their time. At various times I was running ZX Spectrum (Z80) and Atari/Amiga (68000) game code on my BBC (6502), in a way that is akin to emulation, and remarkably for some things it sort of worked. I also built a crude floppy disk controller in discrete logic (74LS devices) on a breadboard so I could read Amiga floppies, because ordinary floppy controllers couldn't read its unusual format.

Then I went to university at 18, and within a month discovered the internet using the Sun machines there.

I say within a month, because it was a secret internet: Undergraduates were not supposed to have access, and we were not even told the internet existed.

I found the internet entirely by accident due to running an Emacs command...

And when administation found out, they took it away.... but felt pity and let me have access again as long as I didn't tell other people. It was read-only, I wasn't allowed to post anything.

That's when I started to learn Lisp, C and Unix on Sun workstations...

The main source of knowledge was Emacs' own built-in documentation, Sun man pages, GNU info, and other people's source code (usually GNU) because I could download packages over FTP, even if I couldn't talk to anyone writing it.

Eventually we were all allowed to use the internet, so Usenet was all the rage, people joined MUDs, and a couple of years later this thing called NCSA Mosaic came out.

About then, some guy called Linus posted on comp.os.minix that he was writing a toy kernel...