The most depressing kind of response is "if you change the names, the point still stands". I already got the point being made, and I was worried about it when I first heard about the Iranian hackers in late March. The point isn’t what’s offensive. Grabbing my attention with a racist caricature to make your point? That’s the problem. Furthermore, it wasn’t just the name. It was a complete caricature of a dishonest immigrant to the West from my part of the world, with a name, a job, relatives who are also scammy disreputable people, and a crafty scheme. It was the whole racist package with batteries included.
Have you considered the possibility that maybe the author wasn't an American and he used 'honest Achmed' like an American would have used 'honest Joe' and a German 'honest Hans'?
Okay. I substitute "Honest Achmed" with "N-word Jim's Southern Signed Certificates". This shouldn't be racist at all, (edit: or if it is racist, it shouldn't matter) since there's a point.
edit: There's a reason why it's Achmed, and not "Honest Matthew" or "Honest James".
In the US, at least, "Achmed" is a commonly-used colloquial name to disparagingly describe an Arab, similar to "Leroy" for a black person. An example: "I wish Achmed over there would climb down from his camel and fetch me a Slurpee". So some might take offense to its use.
I wonder if 4chan could be persuaded to become as infatuated with watermelons and fried chicken as they are with bacon. If you're right, we might be able to de-stigmatize a couple of delicious foods and reduce some racial stereotyping.
Or perhaps, they're subtly satirizing someone clumsily pretending to be Arabic who doesn't even know enough to choose a plausible name. Honest Achmed's is a false-flag operation!
I've noticed that getting offended about stereotypes and word choice is a very American thing to do – and also shared with other cosmopolitan English-speaking areas. For most groups X, "X-Americans" are more likely to take offense than plain X. So you may see foreigners speaking about stereotypes – those applying to their own groups or others, in jest or debate – with a level of frankness that triggers the 'racist! must! object!' reaction in acculturated Americans/anglophones. Of course, YMMV.
This is an amazing discovery. You mean to say that when Arabs are with each other, in their own country, they speak to each other frankly, humorously and in broad generalizations about their own culture -- while going about their day, interacting with Arab society, as if they're doing nothing wrong?
Well then, I can't possibly see how that's different from a proportionally small group of Arabs in English-speaking countries being generalized about, made fun of, or being reduced to caricatures by the much larger non-Arab population -- who then accept and act upon those stereotypes when they interact with Arabs (or people resembling).
Sir, have you documented your observations? The world of sociology will surely be shaken by this!
My observation is not primarily based on 'X' members speaking amongst themselves in their own country and language, but when speaking in mixed X and American/anglophone contexts.
I've noticed this most strongly where X is drawn from {Spanish-speaking countries, anywhere in Asia, Russia}. I don't have enough data points to be sure how still-native Arabs treat stereotypes and non-politically-correct word choices. (I have a hunch they are relatively thick-skinned, plain-speaking, and don't have the same stereotyping/language taboos as Americans/anglophones have, but I could be wrong.)
Yes, having experienced discrimination as a minority immigrant community in the English-speaking world would be one plausible explanation for greater sensitivity among X-Americans than native-X. As would now being in a culture that assigns greater deference to those expressing 'group offense'. It's overdetermined!
It sounds like a study of nothing. It sounds like a question nobody cares about, but that could easily be misused in the service of racism. I take very strong exception to the idea that there’s nothing wrong with this kind of passive-aggressive hate speech, and that I only think there is something wrong with it because (you think) I grew up in America instead of that part of the world. I’ll give you a clue: in the USA, I’ve actually heard the phrase "I ain’t Iranian" from a redneck, who was trying in his inarticulate bigoted way to convey to me that he wasn’t going to cheat me. Reading this bug report was like having to listen to an embarrassing and pathetic fool of a racist relative going on and on. I would think this racist fool was pathetic and embarrassing for saying things like that no matter where I grew up.
There are lots of reasons why someone might call himself or herself a hyphenated American. I called myself an Arab-American to establish bona fides for my confident statement that Achmed is not a name, nothing more. You don’t actually know anything about me because I said I’m an Arab-American. That might mean I’m culturally American, culturally Arab, some mix of varying degrees of the two, or even fully both. I may simultaneously consider myself fully Arab and better at being American than most 10th-generation Americans. Who are you to say different?
What is the point, anyway? So what if my opinion of this speech is determined by where I grew up? The tasteless racist caricature I’m criticizing is what it is and would be that whether I even existed or not.
I don't know you, so my observation did not include, nor does it rely on, any ideas about where you grew up or in which cultures you can seamlessly operate.
If that wasn't clear from the generic wording of my first comment, it should have been clear from the second, where I clarified this is an observation over many nationalities (unrelated to you and your declared identity), and that one contributor to this "offense gradient" could be that it is a reasonable reaction to discrimination faced as a minority.
The point is that I find it interesting how much the tendency to take offense over racial/national stereotypes varies by culture/language, and that the American/anglophone culture seems most likely to take (or worry about giving) offense. This is an observation independent of any judgement about the right level of offense.
(And while it would be interesting to further understand these cultural differences, my quip about a study was a mock-serious response to the parent's sarcasm.)
No, you’re just arguing with me about the difference between a name and a mistaken transliteration. Their parents named them an Arabic name. There is no such Arabic name as Achmed. Sorry. Learn my language first, and you can tell me what is and isn’t a name in it.
That’s not a variant of Ahmad the name, it’s an eccentric variant transliteration of it. Transliterating that particular Arabic sound to "ch" evokes a "k" sound, and that’s how ignoramuses pronounce it, "Akmed". There is no such Arabic name. The fact that a few people named Ahmad have been mistransliterated as Achmed in no way means that it’s a legitimate variant transliteration. It is simply wrong, and your Wikipedia link is just documenting instances of a mistake. The "ch" or "kh" diphthong is properly and correctly used only when transliterating the Arabic letter خ. The name Ahmad only contains the letter ح, which has a completely different sound.
thanks for enlightening about the context surrounding it - that explains the emotions some folks have towards the report. I treated the name as just a name so the reactions were pretty hard to explain.
In context, together with this sentence, looks definitely way more stupid.
There doesn't need to be one for it to be racist. pnathan seemed to be saying that either it wasn't racist, or it didn't matter that it was racist, because there was a point.
My is that whether or not that's true is immaterial (and demonstrably false): the person created this fictional Honest Achmed -- a play on the stereotype of Arabs as untrustworthy in business dealings. He further went on to capitalize on a number of other stereotypes about Arabs as he presented his completed app.
If I wrote the same thing, but from the perspective of the fictional Jim I mentioned above, I don't think you would have any question about how racist it was. If I littered my post with a bunch of stereotypes about black Americans, don't you think that would be racist?
"a play on the stereotype" - this makes it humorous, not racist.
Please, please, please, oh dear people. Try to be a little bit less busy with the showdown maquillage of political correctness and overthinking. Putting variables X, Y, Z instead of any real references in this passage would have made it politically correct, but would sterilize the point away from it.
The stereotypes are useful in being able to predictably and easily recreate a vivid image that can give the backdrop for the core message.
This all has nothing to do with Arabs and everything to do with certificates.
Those particularly concerned are welcome recreate the same scenario using the image of the "new-russian" Ivan, a representative of the Russian Business Investment Network.
> "a play on the stereotype" - this makes it humorous, not racist.
It makes it humor based on a racial stereotype.
---
This comment is easy to make when you aren't the one who is painted by the stereotypes. If you have to contend with people's pre-existing impressions of you -- one that is derived from these stereotypes -- you might not be dismissive of them.
Only someone who is not negatively affected by racial stereotypes would have the audacity to claim that complaints over them are merely for show, or political correctness.
Try belonging to a race that is targeted for violence by people who subscribe to these stereotypes. Or try being a decent human and consider that not everyone enjoys the a priori assumption of competence and individuality that you are afforded. Other people have to contend with the a priori assumption of being Achmed.
The second question even respectable strangers tend to ask me after "where you are from ?" is "you must be really into drinking vodka ?", so the effect of stereotypes on me is mostly amusement. Another example is my wife who is an entrepreneur, and tells plenty of stories of how it is to be a blond woman - because the other party a-priori tends to think of usual "blonde" stereotypes. She also says this lasts for approximately 5 first minutes into the conversation and then she gains more respect than if she'd be a man in a suite, we speculated.
This "positive" view of stereotypes made me skewed, I think, so again - excuse me.
The people who seriously and blindly apply the stereotypes deserve more education than they were able to get. And those who feel the impact of those people taking the stereotypes seriously, do deserve to be in a more intelligent company too - it's unfortunate if they can not rectify that by changing the circle of acquaintances.
> This could've easily been say "P-Diddy's Certificate and Ho Emporium", "certificats pour les snobs par francois" or "Jenkins Tea, Crumpets and Certs".
The assumption here is that perpetuating English and French stereotypes is morally equivalent to doing the same to black American. Apart from the fact that being known for drinking tea and eating biscuits is not nearly as embarrassing or damaging as being thought of as a pimp or ho, there's another problem here: every non-white person can hold this assumption about French and English people and the French and English will not have a problem getting around in society. The same is not true with your P-Diddy example, if believed by every non-black person.
> If it wasn't for stereotyping we'd loose a valuable source of comedy all over the world.
This is tantamount to saying "I have a right to perpetuate racially-based stereotypes, despite any claimed or real negative effect they have, because my ability to be funny depends on it."
> The assumption here is that perpetuating English and French stereotypes is morally equivalent to doing the same to black American.
But it is, that is the essence of a stereotype. If we take out the ethnicity factor and go into personalities your argument is the same as saying that it is embarrassing and damaging for Librarians to be labelled as boring and strict, for Managers to be labelled as conniving bastards and idiots, for Artists to be labelled as always high on drugs, for Nerds to be labelled as outcasts and acne ridden.
I consider your argument flawed in that stereotyping will always have an element of "there's some truth in your fiction and some fiction in your truth".
Fiction and Fact are two completely different things. It's a good thing many people appreciate fact.
> This is tantamount to saying "I have a right to perpetuate racially-based stereotypes, despite any claimed or real negative effect they have, because my ability to be funny depends on it."
Not just my ability but also that of the Film Industry, TV Productions, Stage Plays, Books, Music, which all continue to use any form of stereotyping for good or bad.
There are too many errors here to deal with. Just the fact that you think being an Arab is analogous to being a librarian for these purposes raises a number of questions in any reasonable reader's mind. Perhaps you think that some people are made librarians from birth and have no choice about the matter.
Your final statement is not even a rebuttal, it's merely an appeal to popularity.
> Just the fact that you think being an Arab is analogous to being a librarian for these purposes raises a number of questions in any reasonable reader's mind.
Pretty much is man, it's just a label. That's all it is regardless of race, sex, color, religion, profession. For better or for worse. The root of the problem is people clinging to this fiction as fact. Time and understanding will fix that.
Given my origin and the situations that come with it at times this philosophy is what works out best for me and those who are willing to listen, if not it's high time to find a more receptive audience.
Foremost we're all individuals. And you know if you can't laugh at yourself... :)
> Perhaps you think that some people are made librarians from birth and have no choice about the matter.
I think that given certain genetic dispositions and the environment where a child grows up that is quite possible.
> Your final statement is not even a rebuttal, it's merely an appeal to popularity.
Turn on any source of information, labels on everyone everywhere. All neatly grouped and organised.
Not pandering to popularity, Just stating fact.
This is making less and less sense. The insight that labels are not the same thing as the thing, itself is a pretty thin one when you water it down like that. You’re taking a truth and turning it into a nihilistic premise that no label is meaningful, just because it’s a label.
If that’s the case, programming must be a hellish experience for you, since it mostly consists of labeling things well.
I understand that you are trying to promote a vision of colorblind equanimity. While your intention may be genuine, you are, frankly, hugely mistaken in your assessment of the impact of racism.
Let's apply your declaration of labels as meaningless is arbitrary to another situation:
Surely you don't spend your time convincing women that the difference between consensual and forcible sex is a void label? That the concept of consent is a futile attempt to manifest an utter and complete abstraction with no inherent value or meaning.
Would you insist that it doesn't matter if a woman -- clinging to the delusion that consent matters -- might be offended when you act on your conviction that consent is an illusion. Circumstances and context are irrelevant, after all!
No. You would be a sociopath or worse, for pretending that a meaningful abstract act -- consent -- is meaningless because you can't understand it or are inconvenienced by it.
Your entire argument is flawed by fallacious and/or bad reasoning. Based on what you've written, it's obvious that you've never been significantly hurt or impacted by racial discrimination. Consider, then, that you are greatly unqualified to be dictating to anyone the nature of such experiences. The authority with which you deign to define racism -- or dismiss it as non-existent -- is astounding.
That would be taking my commentary completely out of context as I'm clearly applying it to stereotyping and nothing else.
Stereotyping would have happened way before the act of intercourse as 2 adults check off all the boxes on their mental wish lists of what they look for in a mate.
After that, it's up to proper courtship and etiquette. A completely different matter.
> Your entire argument is flawed by fallacious and/or bad reasoning. Based on what you've written, it's obvious that you've never been significantly hurt or impacted by racial discrimination.
A bold claim, you assume that just because I have not shared a "woe is me" chronology that I have not suffered the impact of trauma, severe depression, isolation and been thru my share of misfortune. I would almost dare to say that you are discriminating me in this instance because you cannot apply your regular check list for what you would deem a victim of racism.
But I can understand why. I will agree that perhaps my reasoning could be better and I may not deal with matters in the most conventional way but permit me to share what I have learned on my journey so far. Perhaps it will bring clarity.
I concluded that by removing layers and layers of abstraction, applying for the most part pure logic and what I've learned from human behaviour, that a lot of events become predictable and in its essence very understandable. Applying the method of abstraction to stereotyping, and your particular argument of racism, the end outcome is that one is left with the pure individual. Which to me matters most.
Humans are still very much like animals, we fear that which we don't know and understand. Until people understand empathy and ego, judging an individual on a feature set isn't going away anytime soon.
With that said, I give it a high probability that you will still say I am breaking all the rules.
Breaking all the rules made me a more functioning person.
No, sorry, I don't view you as some kind of revolutionary with a novel or even challenging viewpoint. You aren't breaking any rules, you conform to the same mold as most others here.
You are another person on this thread who knows absolutely nothing about the impacts of racism. There is nothing bold about this claim. You don't show any level of understanding of the issue. The convenience with which you dismiss the application of your logic to another abstraction merely reveals how arbitrary you are. That you think it's such an enlightened view of the world demonstrates how disconnected your approach is.
Perhaps because your mind is your most developed tool, to the neglect of your emotional intelligence, you think that sophistry and intellectual gymnastics can reframe the situation in a way that denies the claims of other people and doesn't require you to seriously contend with the fact that you might have racist attitudes. There's nothing new about that and you are hardly unique for it.
Your "woe is me" comment is telling, and perhaps the only glimpse of the truth you've given here. You obviously don't think that people who claim to be impacted by racism are honest or competent, preferring instead to believe that they are allowing themselves to be victimized by attachment to illusory labels.
Congratulations Siddhartha; you could have saved a lot of typing by initially stating that you don't think racism is a real phenomenon, despite having no first hand experience with it, and you therefore insist on your right to make racially-derived stereotypes. And, in the interest of preserving your assumptions and avoid having them challenge, you should have initially declared your refusal to listen to people who claim to have been impacted by racism, preferring to dismiss their experiences as delusional.
Nobody would have responded to you if you had simply been this honest up front.
There's nothing unique about my viewpoint, I'm certain that somewhere else someone has come to a similar conclusion given a set of events and influences. It's just rare to see it expressed so here we are.
I find it worrying that you continue to use your measurement stick to say "you must be this hurt" to understand racism. I've outlined that we will continue to have stereotypes and that's it's not correct to use fiction as established fact. That a label can be true or false. That racism comes down to labelling an individual for perceived inadequacies. That racism will continue to be an ongoing issue given human nature. Been there and still there.
I don't doubt a persons integrity in any fashion, what I do find alarming is that those victimised start accepting a label as a fact and thereby continuing this negative themselves. Hence if a label no longer has the emotional attachment nor the emotional impact that is intended by those with ill will how can this not be a good thing ? Certainly it will not heal scars of the past but it will make for a better future.
If it was up to you it would for example mean I couldn't write childrens books such as "Fei-Long the fisherman from China", "Jenkins from England buys a top-hat", "Ela from India goes to the Temple". By that token I stand by my opinion that a stereotype is permissable in an entertainment context for good and bad. I can entertain the thought, and then discard it for what it is, a piece of fiction. Since not all Chinese are fishermen, not all English people wear top-hats, not all from India have the same belief and for good measure not all Black people are Gangsters. List goes on.
If I didn't want to listen or gain insight into another persons viewpoint we wouldn't be here in this instance. What disappoints me is that despite my best efforts to understand and communicate, it would appear I have failed in this.
I've stated how I've become who I am today and still you claim that I have no experience with the matter, well I'm sorry if your measurement stick doesn't work on me. By that token it would mean that only your personal experience is what defines racism and how only you can decree what it's definition is in it's experience, speech, thought and writing on the matter.
I've been honest the entire journey, yet you responded at each passage.
For this I love you and thank you friend, it's been informative.
I'm afraid that the measuring stick is working just fine.
You certainly don't need to be hurt to understand racism, but if you have been hurt you will understand it. And if you haven't, you won't understand it until you acknowledge that your initial perceptions of racism are not founded in experience.
Tim Wise (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Wise) is one such person, who is not discriminated or attacked because of his race -- nor does he belong to a race that is frequently attacked or stereotyped negatively, at least not in the US -- and nonetheless has an excellent understanding.
What you've put on display here is well-intentioned talk about transcending labels, or equating "wears top-hats" with "dishonest cheater" as if the difference between the two -- which any simpleton can grasp -- doesn't exist. Your demonstrated understanding of racism has nothing to do with the experiences of real people, which seem to mean less to you than intellectual abstractions.
Thanks for your sisyphean efforts in explaining to this unsympathetic audience why sexing up your bug report with racist caricatures is simply not cool, jessedhillon.
Generally, the people who entertain these stereotypes are those who aren't affected negatively by any stereotypes. It's part of what is sometimes referred to in sociology as the folk theory of racism, which is built on three tenets:
1) race is a significant biological fact, whereas most sociologists agree that it is entirely a political fact
2) racism only exists where people specifically intend to be racist, i.e. that it is entirely a manifestation of individual belief, and
3) that racism is a natural and unavoidable result of the human condition.
You can see the manifestations of this theory on this thread, especially points 2 and 3. Consider the responses here to the effect that because there was a greater point about certificate authorities being made (and thus no specific racist intent exists) no racism is present.
And also consider the responses to the effect that stereotypes are a necessary part of humor, without which apparently no effective communication would be possible. It's practically a claim to the right to stereotype other races. In another response, a commenter points out that there also exist stereotypes of English and French people, as though all stereotypes are morally equivalent.
