Yeah I feel you. I don't think I was whataboutism-ing. The parent comment said PoE is fine because it's just cosmetics in game that you can buy. I guess I should have said you could spend thousands of dollars on PoE on cosmetics, but I'm just stating that one isn't better than the other. The main topic to me is that people are saying they don't like p2w games, and it feels like a weak argument if you say you don't like manipulative psychology in MTX but you actually are fine with it in regard to cosmetics because it doesn't impact your experience.
I just get this vibe that people don't think through their stance these days. They just want what they want, and use ethics to support their point when they don't really have a consistent sense of morality to speak of.
MTX are not inherently evil, for example I fully support one-time unlocks with MTX. It's a fair business model. (Although in these cases they might not be called MTX at all; probably "expansions" or "DLCs".)
And the thing with cosmetics is that they're opt-in; whoever decides to never buy will also never be negatively affected -- which is not true for pay-to-win.
I guess that's why there's this "evilest, eviler, evil and less evil" scale of game MTX.
I personally would prefer all cosmetics be farmable but I'm okay with having those be also available for buying.
> I just get this vibe that people don't think through their stance these days. They just want what they want, and use ethics to support their point when they don't really have a consistent sense of morality to speak of.
I thought it through and my stance is I do think there's a very big difference between p2w and cosmetic only cash shops from a moral stand point in the context of Diablo Immortal and PoE.
I never felt like PoE was trying to push me into buying something. The purchases I've made (0 cosmetic btw, it's been all quality of life things) were on my own terms, I didn't feel manipulated in the slightest. There was no gambling mechanic, it was a straight "I give them money and they give me stash tabs" transaction, there's no catch. I don't need to login every day to keep them, they exist until PoE decides not to run PoE anymore.
The above is a lot different than Diablo Immortal trying its hardest to convince you to buy something because it directly alters the core mechanics of an ARPG which is to make your character stronger by trying to get you to purchase items that make your character stronger. The whole system is set up to make you constantly evaluate "well, should I grind this out 8 hours a day for 4 months or spend $50 to have it in a few days?", and it's painfully obvious.
These elements are also pushed into the game's UI so it's in your face all the time. They also took it 1 step further and introduced a lot of randomness into your real money purchases and they self destruct if you stop logging into the game. I was trying to compare this to a "real life company" like a casino or car salesman but somehow even they seem better from a morality standpoint when compared directly to Diablo Immortal.
So yes, in my mind there is a big morality difference between these 2 games in how they operate their cash shop. One of them feels like inconceivably high pressure sales tactics designed to maximize profits at no cost while the other feels like a game that does everything in its power to kill you with kindness by providing value through entertainment in the game so you end up making purchases because you like the game and want to support the developers, what you get out of that is more like warm fuzzies and some quality of life enhancements (or cosmetic things if that's what you like).
These are all valid reasons to dislike p2w games. I do think that some of the p2w aspects are more complex/confusing than in previous games, but for instance losing paid for content because of time constraints isn't a novel idea. That's literally what a battle pass is. PoE has Vault Pass. You have to log in and play to receive those awards. You pay for the opportunity to get them and there is a time constraint if you don't play enough. Some games more than others make the battle pass easier to achieve with dailies.
That said you are addressing that you "feel" like it's not as bad. However, I would argue that PoE wouldn't be still running so successfully without whales that may or may not be victims. You are, like many sane human beings, reaping the benefits of a well funded development team by whales. Does that make it ethically right because you don't "feel" it or see it as egregiously? Should a skin ever cost $50?
Like most things you feel it when it impacts your experience, which is very clear if you aren't a spender in a p2w game. If it didn't impact your experience you don't care hence why you think one is worse than the other. It's about how you feel, and that is the problem today. It's hard to solve a problem when people are inconsistent about where they stand on an issue. Do they care about victims and these MTX tactics or do they just not like p2w games. Personally, I don't think p2w games should be illegal much like I don't think gambling should be illegal, but I do think there needs to be more regulation about predatory MTX especially in regard to children across the board.
> It's about how you feel, and that is the problem today.
An opinion is often based on feel. For context I've put in thousands of hours into D2 back in the day, not nearly as much into D3 and quite a lot into PoE but no where near as much as D2. With Diablo Immortal I haven't seen this type of backlash over a cash shop and how it ties into core game mechanics in my life of gaming.
I also can't speak for PoE's finances or how they remain in business. I'm sure there's whales out there but I don't consider that my business, so you are right in that their actions don't affect me. If someone wants to pay $50 for a cosmetic skin and the game makes it available then so be it, for me personally that immediately gets classified as optional so it doesn't affect my experience playing the game. I never get the urge to buy those things because I see others having it. I also don't make assumptions about why they bought it (to support the game, they have addiction problems, etc.) because that's not my battle and there's nothing I can do about that in the end anyways.
My philosophy has been to apply a pretty basic set of rules in that if a game does what I think are predatory things then I don't play it, buy it or contribute to its parent company's profits. If I like a game and it feels reasonable to me in how its priced (1 time purchase, cosmetic cash shop, etc.) then I will happily support it. Everyone's rules here are different.
I just get this vibe that people don't think through their stance these days. They just want what they want, and use ethics to support their point when they don't really have a consistent sense of morality to speak of.